Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby DennyCrane » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:05 am

The whole concept of Kickstarter is to give small starter-up companies a platform. If the Horsemen are really that small after this many years so be it, but it's probably more a point of organization than reputation. Mom and Pop shops don't have to be disorganized, it's a choice--or lack of as the case may be. That's not necessarily a knock. It just depends on how you prefer a ship--tight or loosey goosey.

I think the reason the preorders don't have more press is again due to the way the ship is run. I hate to give eBay as example, but you don't have to advertise your stuff for sale. They usually do a good job of getting the advertisement out there. Now contrast that to other businesses who have to fight tooth and claw to even be seen on the www. That's the plus that Kickstarter provides--yes the platform, but also THE place where all this stuff can be seen. You don't have to advertise it much. People just go there. Someone asked in a forum the other day where you even do a Horsemen preorder. That pretty much sums it up. If people don't know where you are, how can they order?
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Chicken George » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:51 am

I think there are way to many of us commenting on things that we do not know anything about.

This is a very risky business, even well funded companies like Hasbro and Mattel for example have struggled making money at times. They are in the "successful model of companies" that several here have referred to.

4H cannot afford to have their product peg warm shelves even if it is in their own warehouse. They operate way to close to the margin, their investment into new molds is guaranteed to pay for Itself by the structure they use on Kickstarters. If there is no interest then it does not get made and nobody is out the money.

To be honest I bet Mattel and Hasbro would love to use Kickstarters. They would start the same line of fan discussion that is going on here, and would never get the product to market in time to keep interest in the movie themes that many are based on. It just is not practical for them to do it. And they use the size of their companies to self fund or get a line of credit to complete their releases.

The 4H product is not tied to movies and is more of a timeless product, It is also a much smaller group of people supporting it, although it is growing fast. Maybe someday they will have a line of credit that allows them to do what ever they want. I want what they offer and Kickstarters are perfect for them and for me.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby boogieman4hire » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:14 pm

Well I definitely appreciate their cheaper pricing for figures during kickstarters. Sure the initial pledge is like ten bucks higher but that means nothing as that extra money pays for the shipping on that one figure and any others you might add. Buy 20 figures shipping still only $10? Can't beat that. Of course I mean only domestically. Then the stretch goals that make them add more stuff to a figure increasing the value of your buy. A lot of the weapons that legion builders in particular came with were meant to only be in those weapons packs Also with the stretch goals I remember one interview during the Advent of Decay where the 4H were talking about how quickly we blew past them. So quickly in fact that they added in characters that they hadn't intended to use yet. Preorders don't give you that opportunity. All I know is that as a consumer it's more beneficial to me.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Ghost Whisper » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 pm

I do tend to agree that Kickstarters intended purpose was to give upstarts a place to launch their ideas. The theory being, once they successfully fund their project that they become established and become self sufficient. I would have to think that raking in 1 million last KS would have done that, but not knowing how good of businessmen the 4H are, I can only speculate. I do know that forking over 10% to KS (over $100,000 in this case) can't be a good feeling. And that if there was any way to keep that loot in their own pocket, they would so.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby domu » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:30 pm

Kickstarter may have begun as a platform to launch unknown products/companies/ideas, but it quickly, almost immediately, became something different.

Many successful Kickstarters have returned to the platform repeatedly, ones that cleared way more than the 4H ever have.

A bit outdated, but here are the top Kickstarters as of June 2017:
1. Pebble Time - $20,338,986.
2. Coolest Cooler - $13,285,226. ...
3. Pebble 2, Time 2 - $12,779,843. ...
4. Kingdom Death: Monster 1.5 - $12,393,139. ...
5. Pebble E-Paper Watch for iPhone and Android - $10,266,845. ...
6. Travel Jacket - $9,192,055. ...
7. Exploding Kittens - $8,782,571. ...
8. OUYA - $8,596,474. ...

3 of the top 5 are the same company!
Kickstarter clearly does not care that their original purpose has evolved. Why should we?

There is literally nothing a company the size of the 4H can afford to do that will reach an audience equivalent to what a well run Kickstarter brings to the table.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby DennyCrane » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:57 pm

For the same reason Google doesn't care anymore: Greed. And look what's happened there. Remember when Google was a search engine, not Big Brother of the internet? Just because the ill effects haven't been seen yet doesn't mean they won't, and just because everyone else is breaking the rules, still doesn't make it right to do so. Pretty much idiot logic to have to state that but there it is.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby domu » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:42 pm

DennyCrane wrote:For the same reason Google doesn't care anymore: Greed. And look what's happened there. Remember when Google was a search engine, not Big Brother of the internet? Just because the ill effects haven't been seen yet doesn't mean they won't, and just because everyone else is breaking the rules, still doesn't make it right to do so. Pretty much idiot logic to have to state that but there it is.


:roll:

Breaking what rules?
What are you even going on about?

Kickstarter exists to make Kickstarter money. That part has never changed. It's maybe much more blatant now, but it's always been the case.

It's also always been the case that Kickstarter helps unknown companies/individuals get the funding they need to make their ideas into reality. That has not changed. Truly small, unknown companies/individuals can still bring their ideas to Kickstarter, and if they're good, they get funded.

Successful, returning companies are not blocking small, first timers from getting on, or getting funded on, Kickstarter. I'd argue the opposite. I don't think there would have been successful campaigns from Dime Novel Legends or Hellscreamers or Animal Warriors of the Kingdom without Boss Fight and Marauder paving the way.

If you want to complain about Kickstarter, why start with successful campaigns that deliver great product, like ML2, just because the 4H have used Kickstarter before and you happen to think they are too big for it now based on nothing more than your gut feeling? Why not complain about Kickstarter's apparent lack of vetting, and obvious lack of giving a shit afterwards, of companies that have used the platform to run outright scams?

You seem to be holding onto this irrational belief that something pure and innocent is being threatened. But it was never strictly so. It can still be, but that is up to individual projects and backers. Like what project X is doing? Back it. Don't like what project X is doing? Don't back it. It doesn't get any simpler.

A "big" company like the 4H or Pebble running another million dollar Kickstarter doesn't stop me from backing some artist asking for five hundred bucks to put out her comic book. What you seem to be worried about is entirely within your control.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby domu » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:54 pm

And do you know what Kickstarter does now, that is really great, when it allows companies to come back to the platform repeatedly?
It gets ideas to market faster and with fewer compromises. It's still, at it's core, helping people bring ideas into reality.

Mythic Legions simply would not exist in its present form without Kickstarter. The figures would not be as good. There would not be as many different figures released. To get the figures made without Kickstarter funding would have meant a painfully slow release schedule and/or compromises being made in the quality of the figures.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby naugem » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:04 pm

Ended up going with the ogre and the ogre LB. Man I have a bunch of figures coming in spring, I thought I was going to skip this pre-order, but I couldn't resist in the end...
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby DennyCrane » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:14 pm

The thing is we don't know that it doesn't keep another artist from using Kickstarter. We don't know how vast is the Kickstarter platform and how much it can hold at any one time. It's not unreasonable to assume it's NOT infinite or that it will stress the network at times. Perhaps even lockups? I can't deny that Kickstarter gives Mythic Legions some really great perks, and that at one point it was essential to grow the brand. But it would be selfish to keep someone with a great idea from realizing said idea just because of that and to keep the baby bird in the nest instead of kicking its @ss out to fly on its own.

Companies using Kickstarter to run criminal scams is another whole ball of wax. Those users are reserved for the 8th circle of hell and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. Or made to watch Tele-tubbies into eternity. 6 of 1.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby domu » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:58 pm

DennyCrane wrote:The thing is we don't know that it doesn't keep another artist from using Kickstarter. We don't know how vast is the Kickstarter platform and how much it can hold at any one time. It's not unreasonable to assume it's NOT infinite or that it will stress the network at times. Perhaps even lockups? I can't deny that Kickstarter gives Mythic Legions some really great perks, and that at one point it was essential to grow the brand. But it would be selfish to keep someone with a great idea from realizing said idea just because of that and to keep the baby bird in the nest instead of kicking its @ss out to fly on its own.


But we sort of do know.

Kickstarter does some vetting/quality control/whatever you want to call it, and refuses some projects. And even though they allow returning project creators, there is still a huge percentage of what can only be called, charitably, amateur shit. Shit that is simply awful, raises little to no money, and doesn't reach funding goals. It's all still there. There is no evidence that Kickstarter has bandwidth problems. You're just making things up.

Again, small projects still get funded all the time, right alongside the large ones. I think there's probably a really good chance that it's the large projects that are actually keeping the lights on at Kickstarter, and without them, there would be no platform for the small projects.

The 4H seem good with Kickstarter because they keep using it.
And, as you say, Kickstarter leads to "great perks" for the customer.
But, you think that since Kickstarter wants to make money (/keep the platform viable for every type of creator by basically not holding past success against previous, successful creators), the 4H should refuse to use Kickstarter, denying them the fulfillment of their dreams and denying customers "great perks."
This makes no sense.


It feels like you are afraid of change. It feels like it frightens you to live in a world where companies like the 4H don't need to go begging from a bank or venture capitalists to get things done. Is that what you've experienced in your life and are familiar with, so you are afraid to see that change?

The 4H know what they are doing. They are using a tool that is available to them (Kickstarter), maybe not to the best or greatest financial success, but to create truly wonderful things. If that's not a good use of Kickstarter, what is?
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby DennyCrane » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:55 pm

LOL! Not at all. Now I think you're seeing things that don't exist or using subversion to try to prove a point. I've seen more change in the past couple years than most would in a lifetime. And provide care for elderly dementia patients a couple years, you'll be amazed what you see and how it broadens your perspective. Hey I'll readily admit I don't know it all, but I do know how to run a business without resorting to eBay or Kickstarter. If anything, I kinda feel (yes it's a feeling, not an absolute certainty) those that cling to Kickstarter are afraid of change. That's what's happening when you stick with eBay (or Kickstarter) for the 5-10% commission fee plus whatever extra fees to Paypal (or eBay's homegrown billing system whatever it is--I haven't used them in years)...afraid of change. Lots of other fish in the sea but they don't go swimming. Even when it costs more to stay where you are.

I'll give ya the "shit" thing. There is a lot of that. So yeah, maybe it's an unfounded fear. But it's sure as hell not a fear of change.

Well we certainly got off topic...um...I got my order in. There! :mrgreen:
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Ideal » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:18 am

As for larger companies/Kickstarters returning and somehow blocking smaller creators, I'll say this much: I've backed more than a few things a Kickstarter other than the Four Horsemen stuff, and every single one of those was found because I was already on KS looking at the 4H stuff and decided to browse. And the stuff James Lynch put up, because he's a fellow board member and a fellow independent comic creator.

If it wasn't for the 4H, an "abuser of the system", I wouldn't even check Kickstarter. that single "too big to use KS" company has led to many small companies getting my money.


Conversely, I can see some people looking at this the same way I feel about eBay, or even local fleemarkets. Once upon a time, these things were a centralized location for people to sell their stuff as opposed to setting up yard sales that people will never come to. But if you go to ebay now, 9 out of 10 results you come across are likely to be online stores selling items at a fixed price. Similarly, a fleemarket now more closely resembles a bunch of small retail shops utilizing the low overhead.

They aren't breaking any rules. They are using eBay exactly the way it is set up. But it can be hard to ignore that the spirit of what eBay was in the beginning has somehow been lost.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Ghost Whisper » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:25 pm

DennyCrane wrote:Well we certainly got off topic...um...I got my order in. There! :mrgreen:


Lol, yes we did. And so did I.

Very, very soon I will have to stop buying that big stuff. Every time a new troll or something like that rolls into the house my wife stares daggers of death at me. At some point she will snap and they will be actual daggers...
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby mignash » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:29 am

I just noticed that the BBTS listing for Bolthor mentioned he comes with the figure, axe and helmet.

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ails/87505

Is this a mistake or does the helmet come off? Or is this a way of saying he comes with an alternate unhelmeted head?
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