Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby TheToyDoc » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:37 pm

dragonsleeper wrote:^^^Fresh Monkey fiction is on its 3rd KS without any released wave :x let's not doubt 4H integrity that they are abusing the KS process


Yep, that’s exactly who I was talking about... they fooled me me once and I’m still asking why they keep being allowed to create new Kickstarters. And no, the Horsemen always make good on their campaigns before proceeding with a new one.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby you_will_forget » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:41 pm

My only issue with a Kickstarter over a pre-order is the final cost. I know I'm going to want everything, with some extras of any orc/gobbo armybuilders, so I can put aside ~£300 without too much issue between preorders.

The last Kickstarter cost me £1500, for which I'd budgeted around £800-£1000 (the first ML Kickstarter came to about that), which makes it extremely difficult to predict how much money I will need to raise.

The excitement of the campaign is great, as is the eventual payoff, but I'd much prefer regular, smaller waves that I can put aside money or sell stuff for.

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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby domu » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:28 am

jscott991 wrote:I still don't get the point of the KS for 4H. They can raise the money just as effectively in a preorder -- at least I'd think so.

In this case, what you think is so and what reality is are very far apart.
Why would you think the 4H, or anyone else, would put up with Kickstarter fees if they could just run a preorder themselves and raise as much money?
How is it that you know more about their financial situation than they do?
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby jscott991 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:46 am

domu wrote:In this case, what you think is so and what reality is are very far apart.
Why would you think the 4H, or anyone else, would put up with Kickstarter fees if they could just run a preorder themselves and raise as much money?
How is it that you know more about their financial situation than they do?


I don't see what the functional difference is. In both cases, customers pay in advance for a product that will be delivered way down the road. Is it buyer security? If a KS isn't funded, no money is collected. Does anyone really believe that this KS wouldn't be fully funded? There's about a zero percent chance of it failing. Besides, didn't 4H run a preorder that "failed"? They refunded the money in that case.

I don't get the point. And I don't think it's unreasonable to be confused by it. Maybe they will say something when they announce it that makes it more clear. I just think Mythic Legions no longer belongs in the Kickstarter realm. It already has a proven following and a proven ability to sell and 4H has other means to collect money in advance, mitigating their risk.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby domu » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:15 am

jscott991 wrote:I don't see what the functional difference is. In both cases, customers pay in advance for a product that will be delivered way down the road. Is it buyer security? If a KS isn't funded, no money is collected. Does anyone really believe that this KS wouldn't be fully funded? There's about a zero percent chance of it failing. Besides, didn't 4H run a preorder that "failed"? They refunded the money in that case.

I don't get the point. And I don't think it's unreasonable to be confused by it. Maybe they will say something when they announce it that makes it more clear. I just think Mythic Legions no longer belongs in the Kickstarter realm. It already has a proven following and a proven ability to sell and 4H has other means to collect money in advance, mitigating their risk.


You asked why the 4H use Kickstarter instead of a preorder.
They use Kickstarter because it reaches a bigger audience.
You said you don't believe that is true.
You are wrong about that, as is shown by the 4H continuing to use Kickstarter. (Your own example of their failed preorder further proves the point/ I think the Powerlords preorder would have succeeded as a Kickstarter.)

Why do you believe that the 4H shouldn't use Kickstarter if it makes financial sense to them? Aside from the complaints that too much product is offered at one time, I haven't seen any other reason given. And even that doesn't really have anything to do with using Kickstarter in itself, just in how particular Kickstarters are structured.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Chicken George » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:56 pm

jscott991 wrote:
domu wrote:In this case, what you think is so and what reality is are very far apart.
Why would you think the 4H, or anyone else, would put up with Kickstarter fees if they could just run a preorder themselves and raise as much money?
How is it that you know more about their financial situation than they do?


I don't see what the functional difference is. In both cases, customers pay in advance for a product that will be delivered way down the road. Is it buyer security? If a KS isn't funded, no money is collected. Does anyone really believe that this KS wouldn't be fully funded? There's about a zero percent chance of it failing. Besides, didn't 4H run a preorder that "failed"? They refunded the money in that case.

I don't get the point. And I don't think it's unreasonable to be confused by it. Maybe they will say something when they announce it that makes it more clear. I just think Mythic Legions no longer belongs in the Kickstarter realm. It already has a proven following and a proven ability to sell and 4H has other means to collect money in advance, mitigating their risk.


You are a relative newcomer to 4H, you do a lot of posting, mostly negative lately. I purchased more than 100 figures from the Kickstarter, and purchased more than 40 more since they were delivered between ComConNJ and the in stock sale. I had just a couple of quality issues, minor in my opinion. You post and say that you are not sure if you want any more figures due to the severe quality issues of your very few figures.

Then you continue to extend this conversation about the Kickstarter, I do not understand how it affects you negatively, or why you seem so interested in how 4H conduct their business. These are not rich guys, they have to pay rent and pay employees as well as take a cut for their own livelihood.

You seem to assume too know too much. They are collectors and designers. They have figured out how to bring us the product that we all want. The only real criticism I have ever had of them has been delivery time after the figures are in house, I was a harsh critic, and they have absolutely fixed that problem.

Your delivery invoice includes their phone number. They do answer if you call them. If you cannot bring yourself to give up on this topic, call them and maybe they will tell you, (I would not).

Your other criticism about the long wait after orders seems to be out of line. They always tell everyone their hopes, not guarantees. Anybody who has been around awhile knows how it works, pay lower price and wait for the figures to be made, or buy them after market when they are released and see which makes you happier.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby jscott991 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:43 pm

I don't think that many of my posts are negative, so I will drop this line of conversation immediately. There are issues with Kickstarters, a few others have posted too, and I find their use of it at this point in the line confusing. That's all. I'm done. Sorry for negativity on this issue.

I will say that my AoD in-stock figures have had quality issues. It caused me to reduce my Bjorngar order. And 4H has not responded to queries about what to do about the hip problem that I've encountered.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Ideal » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:39 am

jscott991 wrote:I still don't get the point of the KS for 4H. They can raise the money just as effectively in a preorder -- at least I'd think so. Who does a KS reach that a preorder doesn't? It gets advertised in the same places. I can't imagine there is this whole group of people who just troll kickstarters, but pay no attention to toy news elsewhere.


I point toward the failed Power Lords line for your answer to this.

It was a previously established toy line from the 4H. It had many figures in the bag already. They opened up a preorder for highly requested figures and a lot of people (including myself) were really looking forward to them. Preorder didn't make the numbers.

Blame what you want to for the preorder failing, but I firmly believe the lack of exposure that Kickstarter provides is one of the top reasons.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby beast guy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:32 am

I am not getting into the argument, but I do have a question. How much easier is it to run on Kickstarter rather than hold your own pre-order? Even as a backer one can look right away and know how many funds have been collected. There are established apps and pages that show trends and estimated ending funds. I imagine those two factors alone make a difference for creators while making things a little more exciting for us backers. Also how different are the dynamics for stretch goals?
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby Ideal » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:05 am

beast guy wrote:I am not getting into the argument, but I do have a question. How much easier is it to run on Kickstarter rather than hold your own pre-order? Even as a backer one can look right away and know how many funds have been collected. There are established apps and pages that show trends and estimated ending funds. I imagine those two factors alone make a difference for creators while making things a little more exciting for us backers. Also how different are the dynamics for stretch goals?


I don't remember ever seeing a preorder (here or otherwise) that has anything like a stretch goal.

and typically, a preorder has an ambiguous "minimum required" for a preorder to go through that involves numbers that are not revealed regardless of succeed or fail.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby beast guy » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:24 pm

Ideal wrote:
beast guy wrote:I am not getting into the argument, but I do have a question. How much easier is it to run on Kickstarter rather than hold your own pre-order? Even as a backer one can look right away and know how many funds have been collected. There are established apps and pages that show trends and estimated ending funds. I imagine those two factors alone make a difference for creators while making things a little more exciting for us backers. Also how different are the dynamics for stretch goals?


I don't remember ever seeing a preorder (here or otherwise) that has anything like a stretch goal.

and typically, a preorder has an ambiguous "minimum required" for a preorder to go through that involves numbers that are not revealed regardless of succeed or fail.


That is why I was asking regarding stretch goals for pre-orders. I am assuming it is either impossible or at least extremely difficult to add stretch goals to a pre-order without an existing platform designed with stretch goals in mind. Therefore a project with new tooling and extensive retooling would be best carried out on Kickstarter. Let's take mounts as an example.

Assume the Horsemen want to create hippogriffs to go along with their horses. Horses first have to be designed to get the first half of the hippogriff. Then they have to create an eagle for the other half of the hippogriff. After these two are done, they can create the hippogriff. They can go with a massive pre-order including horses, giant eagles, and hippogriffs. If this approach fails, nothing is created. Alternatively they can go with three separate pre-orders which might be more successful, but that means it could take over six years to get to a hippogriff released. Kickstarter, however, allows the Horsemen a chance to attempt creating everything at once without the all or nothing approach. Kickstarter is the no-brainer choice in this situation.

My point with the number system is that most number crunching is already taken care of by kickstarter. Any info available to us is also available to creators. And kickstarter gives us quite a bit of info.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby JamesLynch » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:17 pm

Ideal wrote:I don't remember ever seeing a preorder (here or otherwise) that has anything like a stretch goal.

The only one I can think of is when Matty Collector did their pre-order for DCUC Doomsday, and had 2 versions (one in containment suit, one out of), and they'd commit to production of the containment suit one for hitting X number of pre-orders and the one out of containment suit (theo ne people were actually interested in) if they hit X+Y number of pre-orders.

Oh, and Bandai of Japan did something similar for their Super Sentai Artisan DairenOh. If they hit a certain number of pre-orders, they'd produce a set of Lai Lai Ball replicas to go with the mecha.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby dragonsleeper » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:11 pm

I got in my order and went all green, the ogre 4 pack, thwikk and kkurzog
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby LipSmack » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:11 pm

The biggest Benefit Kickstarter offers me, is the backer kit. If the KS runs a month and then we get another month or so of Backerkit, thats two months to save and plan your order. Its also a pledge so you dont get charged right away. So if you want more after you order you can order more, whereas their website is structured in a way that you can add onto orders, so if you end up wanting more you need to make an entirely new order and pay shipping.
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Re: Siege at Bjorngar Pre-Order

Postby boogieman4hire » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:38 pm

A little sad that the holidays got me and I bought gifts and loaned out money leaving me to not get everything I wanted. Luckily I was still able to get Bolthor and an ogre legion builder. I hope I'll be able to get Thwikk and Kkurzogg in the eventual in-stock sale.
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